This is not to lead to talk of opiate abuse

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sandi123
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Josh

No apologies are necessary, my friend. I just wanted to clarify that they used Narcan to save a couple lives.
Its really easy to misread things, especially when there is a long post.
I agree with you, from my interpretations, disease is an ongoing physiological process, with the patient having no control over it's occurrence. Disorder seems to be a far more accurate term when talking about substance abuse.
While having multiple family members who are alcoholics might make me more susceptible to becoming one, that can only occur if I choose to allow it. Same applies to abuse or misuse of any other substance. I do occassionally have a drink or two, maybe a couple of times a years, at social events, but I am acutely aware in the back of my mind, of what I endured growing up, and simply will not repeat that in my own life.
My father in law worked for the state in the. 70's and 80's, in a state run "h" diversion program. It was a choice between prison or the program, which was live in, long term, and something similar needs to be in place, along with providing narcan.
Until we, as a society stop excusing bad choices, and allowing lack of personal responsibility and accountability to become the get out of jail free card used by a large segment of our population, we are just applying bandaids to this problem.
Even if we assume genetics play a small role in addiction, it still is and always will come down to one thing-and that is the choice to use. Each time someone is faced with the decision, to use or not, they are still making the choice.
I suppose since there is a history of addiction in both our families, there is a "predisposition ", knowing that there may be some generic "predisposition" should make us more vigilant, and in the end, our choices and decisions do play a role , a huge role in whether or not any genetic predisposition is activated.
Genetic factors are just one tiny fraction of the entire picture.
Have a great day Josh. I am really enjoying this conversation, and would love to read others opinions too.
Sandi

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I desperately want to write

I desperately want to write more on this topic, but I just can't seem to process any original thought whatsoever. We've covered genetics (our views and understandings of them, anyhow), and we've discussed the major topic of whether addiction is a disease, or a disorder. I guess we are kind of at a stalemate until someone comes along and can provide an opinion that we can address, because I am absolutely tapped on ideas.

That being said, I think we can all agree that whether addiction is a disease, or a disorder, does not matter as much as one's personal life choices. I think that everyone should know their family medical history regarding drugs abuse, or alcoholism, in order to make their own personal life choice. I think that, if a child is made aware that there is a history of drug abuse in the family, then that child may steer clear from drugs and alcohol to avoid the disasters it can cause. Then again, if the child only hears about it from someone else, as I have from my dad regarding his father's alcoholic tendencies, it may not have as much impact. I know that, personally, I just don't like alcohol. I have nothing against people who drink, and I have drank before in the past. It just wasn't for me. It didn't make me sick, it didn't make me feel the urge to get more and more; I just applied common sense and realized that if I only felt that way when I drank alcohol. I guess I do not want the "crash" that comes with sobering up off of alcohol. Plus, the good feeling only lasts for so long before you either need another drink, or decide enough is enough and call it a night, and face the consequences the next morning. I know of a lot of alocholics around here, and I just don't see how they can do it.

The only thing I think this conversation is missing is a post that differentiates addiction and dependence, and what makes the two different, yet can appear very similar. Along with that, though, comes pseudo-addiction and all kinds of fun psychology garbage. I guess we kind of veered off topic from Goat's original post, eh?

I still do not think Narcan is the answer. Narcan will never be the answer. Heck, there may never actually be an answer. Some people go their whole life strung out on drugs. Others, tragically, have their life cut extremely short by their addiction. My own personal view is that if Narcan is available OTC, with no stipulations as to who can buy it, or how much, or how often; we are only going to make the H problem worse. Something is really messed up in this country if I am allowed to just go down to Walgreens and buy an opiate reversal drug with no stipulations- such as showing ID, or having the cashier log the purchase, yet if I need to buy anything with ephedrine in it, you catch the third degree from the cashier, and have to have the purchase logged, your ID scanned, and then the police come and take a look at the book of who has purchased said medications over the past 30 days. If I had that problem, I know the first thing I would do is make sure I had Narcan available, and then if I OD- so what? Assuming someone is there to administer the Narcan, everything would be fine. Then, since Narcan would precipitate withdrawal, the abuser is just going to have to readminister said substance, and will probably administer a higher amount in order to defeat the Narcan : /

This is going to sound very harsh, but perhaps the only way to curb the problem with H is to let those who are abusing it die from it. I know that that is not a very nice, or politically correct view, but when the abusers die off, so too will the problem. Then, we don't have to worry about our neighborhoods turning to trash, littered with needles, and skanky people we've never seen before walking through our front yards for no apparent reason. I'm sure that if this problem were to go away because we basically take the approach of "what you did is your fault, now deal with it", there will be another problem pop up and takes it's place.

sandi123
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Sadly I have to agree

Whether drug abuse comes from disease or genetics, unless and until they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and are willing to change everything, then nothing changes.
The garbage we have to endure when at the pharmacies to purchase otc and scheduled meds appalls me on one hand, and I agree that narcan should be handled similarly, otherwise we are only adding to an already spiraling problem.
I am 52 years old, grew up in the eras of "h"and [filtered word], and rampant abuse of both substances, and more as the years progressed.
What's ironic is that when physicians began treating every ache and pain, sleepless night, or episode of down moods with large amounts of refillable opiates ,barbituates,and stimulants and is when we saw both the "h" and [filtered word] issues start to recede, and the amounts of those medications being prescribed soar. Now, with all the restrictions in place, we are seeing "h", making a huge comeback.
We created an environment and mentality that the answers to any problem can be medicated away in a pill bottle or illegal substance.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree with there needs to be more thought out into this narcan program as to what happens after the narcan??
It never should be another quick fix to appease a group of people with no follow up or thought to what happens after the narcan...we have had far too many bandaid legislations that fail to address the real issue, and this program is another one.

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I don't agree that addicts

I don't agree that addicts use narcan as a safety net. Nobody, even people that abuse street drugs, wants to use to the point that they OD. Narcan just works as a first line of defense should an overdose happen.

ODs can even happen to legit CPs. For instance, if ones meds got increased and it was too much for that person or if a narcotic pain med was accidently combined with something like Xanax or other meds.

Narcan is legal in my state and I have a bottle just in case. I pray I never need it, but it's there just in case. I think of it like an epi pen for people with severe allergies. You don't want to use it, but it's a good thing that it's there.

Nobody deserves to die because of a stupid decision

E: it says to call 911 or go to the ER after it's administered. Just like an EPI pen!

sandi123
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I think

that there might be some misunderstanding in what's being said...the fear is not that narcan is being used by addicts as a fail safe, but rather that families may view narcan as a solution, without any plan for dealing with the real issue, which is the actual problem, drug abuse. If narcan is made available with no plan for follow-up as far as addressing the addiction and treatment, it simply is applying a bandaid but not healing the wound.
Having narcan available in the event of overdose is a good thing, but there has to be a plan in place to treat the addiction, otherwise, it has not addressed the real issue, the addiction itself.

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re/

 nice reply sandi

sandi123
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Thanks Goat

Hope you are doing well.

goat
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At sandi

  :)  left leg sciatic nerve has been hurting...I need some PTherapy

sandi123
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Sorry to hear that Goat

I hope physical therapy eases it some.

goat
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Happy weekend

Pharmers